HM: What made you start the Abronia Alliance?
Abronia Alliance was started after myself and Forrest Fanning (known most popularly in the herp community by his Instagram handle @Zoodreams) saw that there was an absence of any real large-scale program that was working with Abronia either in captivity or in the wild. This was quite concerning considering there was a fair bit of research claiming that most species of the genus were either threatened, endangered or possibly already extinct. This was an extremely hard reality to accept as some conservationists and researchers predicted a majority of the genus could be lost forever in the next 20 years if something doesn’t change. That is not to say that no one has tried, as a few zoos and private organizations over the years have attempted to make a difference in the future of Abronia, but most have just been too small to really make an impact or slowly fizzled due to lack of time and resources. This was our call to action. As two individuals who had a love and passion for the genus and wanted to see them not only survive but thrive in the future, we decided something had to be done. This was our chance to potentially have an impact on the future of Abronia both in captivity and in the wild. With that the Abronia Alliance was born.
HM: What is the mission of the Alliance and what is the biggest threat to wild populations?
The mission is simple: “Protect and Preserve Abronia”. While that is a great overarching concept and slogan that fits nicely on our logo, the idea and mission of the Abronia Alliance is also much deeper. The mission began with acknowledging the problem. Abronia are habitat specialists that live at high elevations within old-growth oak and pine cloud forests. These forests are extremely special in the fact that they are quite wet, fairly cool and often home to a range of uniquely adapted fauna and flora. Abronia can be found in these forests throughout Mexico, Guatemala and Honduras, however in these countries, the forests are being cleared at an alarming rate for logging, agriculture and urban sprawl. Threats to Abronia in the wild don’t stop there; misconceptions of being venomous, cultural beliefs of bringing bad luck and illegal collection for the pet trade also contribute to their decline, however habitat loss is the number one threat to wild Abronia populations.
Understanding this was what we were fighting against, Forrest and I turned to some people who had seen some of the threats to Abronia first hand. One of those individuals was Dr. Jonathan A. Campbell. This name may sound familiar, as Dr. Campbell is one of the foremost experts on Abronia. He has described multiple species, published various papers on Abronia and even has an Abronia species named after him; Campbell’s Arboreal Alligator Lizard (Abronia campbelli). When meeting with him, one of the most important things he told us was Abronia could not be saved by any one person and that it would take a significant number of dedicated people to change the fate of Abronia. This is when the idea of the Abronia Alliance becoming a network and community to save these species really began. With my background in the professional zoological field and Forrest’s connection to the herp community’s private sector, we formulated the idea of a network that could rally individuals from the private, professional, and academic sectors of herpetology to make something that could function like an SSP (Species Survival Plan) in the private sector. For those that do not know what an SSP is; they are programs set up by the AZA (Association of Zoo and Aquariums) to oversee the population management of select species within certified institutions and to enhance conservation of the species in the wild. This is exactly what we wanted; a group of dedicated Abronia keepers and conservation partners in which we could set up captive assurance populations with good genetic sustainability, learn more about consistently reproducing various species, and providing resources to build and maintain reserves to protect them in their natural habitat.
While a lot of our current mission revolves around building a responsible and sustainable captive assurance population for these species, our ultimate goal is to be able to get down to Mexico and Guatemala and really build a relationship with the local people there so we can all together help save Abronia. We can want to save these species until we are blue in the face but until we are able to help the local people that live with these animals everyday see what we see in them, their future remains bleak. If we can gain local support, there are many things we can do such as restoring habitat in areas that may have been logged, employing locals to protect existing reserves, building up eco-tourism that can help the local economy and even starting programs to help educate kids about the role Abronia play within their unique ecosystem.
HM: Have you always had a specific interest in the Abronia genus?
I have not, it was more of a passion that fell into my lap much later in life. As a young kid I had an innate love for animals (especially for big cats) however as I grew up, I quickly realized most people already loved big cats and there was another group of animals that I was fascinated by that were much less accepted and understood by the public, that group of animals of course were reptiles. At that point my focus really transitioned solely to my passion for reptiles and amphibians especially lizards and snakes. In the beginning, I didn’t have any real knowledge of Abronia as they were quite rare in the wild and even more rare in captivity.
However, as a few species of Abronia started to come into the states by both legal and illegal avenues, I recall starting to see pictures of these amazing little green and blue lizards that looked like miniature dragons. These were the iconic Mexican Arboreal Alligator Lizard (Abronia graminea), easily the most well-known of all the Abronia species. Again, while these species were quite fascinating, it wasn’t until I was building up my reptile collection post college that my Dad actually started sending me all of these pictures and posts of people selling Abronia graminea and telling me that I should really start working with them. This was where everything changed. After researching everything I could find about Abronia (which was quite limited) I found that the entire genus was not very well studied nor were they regularly reproduced in captivity. This, along with all of the other reasons people fall in love with Abronia, really made me dive in head first. I started searching for my first animals, purchased a beautiful pair of A. graminea, and I was hooked.
HM: There doesn’t seem to be too many people in the hobby that are as focused on captive bred Abronia, what do you think is the particular reason why?
You are correct in the fact that there are a very small number of people within the U.S. and Europe really working with even moderate sized collections of captive bred Abronia (we are talking maybe around 20 or so) however that number seems to be steadily increasing. In my opinion, it comes down to two reasons; price and availability. Captive bred Abronia are not insanely priced but they are often higher priced than their wild caught counterparts and usually less frequently available. Even more so than the monetary aspect, availability has been another big factor.
In my opinion, we haven’t really figured out how to consistently reproduce them yet and therefore there are just not that many available. As I mentioned earlier, these lizards come from a very specific habitat type that can be difficult to recreate in a manner that allows for reproductive success. There are a handful of people out there that have done this well. Some of which have success consecutive years and even produce multiple litters within a single year, however this is often far and few between. This has led to a very slow growing interest in working with the genus in a large capacity.
HM: Do you think Abronia are on the right trajectory for more CBB animals and less field collected ones?
I do think as a whole we are on the right path, but we are far from there yet. It is unfortunate, but the story of Abronia is far too similar to many other reptilian species’ history of captive establishment. For a long time, most Abronia were brought into the private trade by illegal avenues (ie smuggling). Animals would often be collected just before the “birthing season” and sent to their foreign destinations. Once settled into their new homes, they would often birth a litter of live young. This still happens to this day, especially with Abronia graminea. However, while many of those babies and adults from generations ago did perish, some survived and went on to find their way into capable hands. While we do not condone this as the right way to establish species outside of their native range, it does happen and is how a lot of the original animals fostered what is here today. With that said, Abronia Alliance is dedicated to building a network of individuals producing CBB animals in hopes that one day we can produce enough animals so that anyone that wants to keep Abronia can easily find a CBB animal and that there will be no further market for field collected individuals.
HM: If someone wants to get into Abronia but wants to start with CBB animals who is the person the talk to currently?
There isn’t really one specific person that is the “Go To” person for CBB Abronia, which goes back to there aren’t many people consistently producing and even more so selling baby Abronia each and every year. With that being said, there are a fair number of CBB baby Abronia produced almost every year, but they are often coming from different people within the Abronia network. I would direct people to that network instead of one particular person. Some of these avenues that can be explored are Facebook groups such as “Abronia”, “Abronia Lizards” and “Abronia spp’s” which are public groups that are all about Abronia (another great resource for husbandry tips and reproduction info). Now we all know you aren’t really supposed to sell animals on Facebook anymore, but a lot of people will post when they produce litters or have extra animals “up for discussion”.
Often if you personal message people with babies you can get on an interested or waiting list for when the babies are big enough to sell/ship. While this group can be a great resource, there is also no guarantee that everyone is producing truly CBB babies on there and some level of common sense should be used to determine if the animals are actually CBB. Most people are pretty good but there are still people out there that will try to pawn off non CBB animals as so. If you are ever wanting a second opinion on animals or a seller of Abronia, you can get ahold of Abronia Alliance on any of our platforms and we will be happy to steer you in the right direction. We don’t know everyone but AA as a group knows a lot of the good people that are on the up and up and part of our mission is to help people acquire truly CBB animals and not any that are wild collected.
HM: Out of all the species in the genus, which is your favorite?
I would have to say my favorite species to work with currently has to be Bocourt’s Arboreal Alligator Lizard (Abronia vasconcelosii). They are a moderate sized species of the genus that is predominantly green or bluish with splashes of yellows, oranges and/or reds on their face and head. They are native to western Guatemala at elevations of 2,000 to 2,200 meters (Köhler 2003, Wilson and Johnson 2010) and have the largest range of all Guatemalan Abronia species. With incredible colors and feisty attitudes, it is extremely easy to fall in love with this species after working with them.
Now, if we are talking about my favorite out of all of the known species, it has to be Frost’s Arboreal Alligator Lizard (Abronia frosti). There is just something about the way the gold and white contrast with the black in their pattern that makes them look extremely regal. Not to mention the fact that they were basically lost to science for over a decade until they were re-discovered in October 2010.
HM: Are there a lot of Abronia species that aren’t in the hobby?
Out of the 29 species that comprise the genus Abronia, more than half of them are not known to be in captivity whatsoever with a good chunk of those species only being described from even a few individuals known to exist. Of the 12-13 species that have been known to be in captivity currently or were at one point, only about three of those species (A. graminea, A. taeniata, A. lythrochila) are considered somewhat common in the private sector.
